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bystander effect
#1
A major conundrum regarding nuclear fallout danger is ubiquitously cited in papers and media releases;  there is more background radiation than nuclear fallout in the environment. Considerably more.  One only need see the Woods Hole webpage on "our radioactive ocean" to see this.

The bystander effect is a fascinating aspect of ionizing radiation (and sometimes UV) that helps elucidate low radiation dose effects and may help highlight this fact; not all radiation sources produce the same biological reaction which can be neatly put on a linear, no threshold graph of dose response.   This is a major flaw of the standard ICRP radiation risk dose model.  Nuclear policy and conclusions of radiation danger are all founded on the ICRP model.  The ICRP director has even admitted the model is not accurate and may be off by two orders of magnitude.

This is the bystander effect; cells that havent been radiated can display radiation effects induced from signals sent from radiated cells.  It is no small factor.  This effect actually dominates low level radiation effects.  DNA damage occurs without even being hit by radiation.   The effect is complicated and involves many communication pathways to near and distant cells in the body and even across animals and species.

The bystander effect is the major cause of DNA and metabolic damage from low level fallout exposure, sometimes by a large factor. One cell which is hit by a radiation track can cause 50 non irradiated cells to change metabolism, ramp up inflammation and even self destruct.

These signals of biological alarm spread through the ecosystem, affecting animals not even hit by radiation.

'Irradiation of rainbow trout at early life stages results in trans-generational effects including the induction of a bystander effect in non-irradiated fish'
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...iated_fish

==========
The bystander effect and other complex variables render radiation dose measurements invalid for many conditions.  This is a major impasse.  Everyone, from the public to scientists to policy makers believe in radiation measurements! But as we see, scientific discovery has shown the situation is far more complex.  

Radiation effects are highly dependent on the quality of radiation, the radiation source, its form and especially if it is an internalized particle.  Here we see local and exchange students measuring radiation levels, finding the dose to be unharmful, promoting nuclear and radio contaminated food...while the birds, bugs and other animals show high rates of deformity, reduced brain size, cancer and morbidity.  
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/...index.html

Reports barely covered in the media show alarming increases in cancer and other diseases, while the public and young scientists are led to believe everything is safe, as shown by radiation measurements. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/prossermarc...4621502332

The bystander effect has overturned the long held dogma of radiobiology.  The impact is seen in the sphere of oncology;

Radiation-induced bystander effect: the important part of ionizing radiation response. Potential clinical implications
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19724078

"It has long been a central radiobiological dogma that the damaging effects of ionizing radiation, such as cell death, cytogenetic changes, apoptosis, mutagenesis, and carcinogenesis, are the results of the direct ionization of cell structures, particularly DNA, or indirect damage via water radiolysis products. However, several years ago attention turned to a third mechanism of radiation, termed the "bystander effect" or "radiation-induced bystander effect" (RIBE). This is induced by agents and signals emitted by directly irradiated cells and manifests as a lowering of survival, cytogenetic damage, apoptosis enhancement, and biochemical changes in neighboring non-irradiated cells. The bystander effect is mainly observed in in vitro experiments using very low doses of alpha particles (range; mGy, cGy), but also after conventional irradiation (X-rays, gamma rays) at low as well as conventional doses. The mechanisms responsible for the bystander effect are complex and still poorly understood."

Emerging role of radiation induced bystander effects: Cell communications and carcinogenesis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2949714/

Genetic changes in progeny of bystander human fibroblasts after microbeam irradiation with X-rays, protons or carbon ions: the relevance to cancer risk.
Our results showed that expression of stressful effects in the progeny of bystander cells is dependent on LET. The progeny of bystander cells exposed to X-rays (LET ∼6 keV/μm) or protons (LET ∼11 keV/μm) showed persistent oxidative stress, which correlated with increased micronucleus formation and mutation at the hypoxanthine-guanine phosphoribosyl-transferase (HPRT) locus. Such effects were not observed after irradiation by carbon ions (LET ∼103 keV/μm)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25084840
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fish receiving a dose of ionising radiation, communicate a chemical message to other fish, causing the partner or 'bystander' fish to induce what may be protective strategies.  Even quantum like effects are being investigated

Biological Entanglement–Like Effect After Communication of Fish Prior to X-Ray Exposure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5818098/

'induced bystander effect can transcend taxonomic group and trophic level in fish. This provides further evidence that bystander signals are widespread and conserved and may be transmitted through an ecosystem, as well as between individuals of the same species.'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23206292


'This demonstrates that extremely low dose irradiation can have effects
outside of the irradiated fish. This has implications for population and ecosystem responses to contamination.'
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...1X13001744

=========

how many atoms of fallout do you need in your body to have a systemic effect…a change in metabolism and inflammation? I had calculated only one atom of Cs137 per cell as a body average, but it turns out you dont need ANY radioactivity at all. None, zero, zip, nada etc. Im talking about Trophic and interspecies bystander effects.

We have more background radiation from potassium than from fallout in our bodies at all times…a chronic dose. Yet a NON-RADIATED fish swimming next to a man-made-radiation radiated fish will have bystander effects. Is that interesting?

"The field of low dose radiobiology has advanced considerably in the last 30 years from small indications in the 1980's that all was not simple, to a paradigm shift which occurred during the 1990's, which severely dented the dose-driven models and DNA centric theories which had dominated until then. However while the science has evolved, the application of that science in environmental health protection has not. A reason for this appears to be the uncertainties regarding the shape of the low dose response curve, which lead regulators to adopt a precautionary approach to radiation protection. Radiation protection models assume a linear relationship between dose (i.e. energy deposition) and effect (in this case probability of an adverse DNA interaction leading to a mutation). This model does not consider non-targeted effects (NTE) such as bystander effects or delayed effects, which occur in progeny cells or offspring not directly receiving energy deposition from the dose."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28863303

===========
Ken Beusseler of Woods Hole and Jay Cullen, prominant mouthpiece in Canada https://cullenlab.ca/ seem confident that science KNOWS the effect of radiation and dose rates on aquatic life. This view is not verified by a critical review of papers.  The problem with such professional confidence is that any negative effects from nuclear fallout that may occur are dismissed out of hand as not possible. 

Assessing the Impact of Ionizing Radiation on Aquatic Invertebrates: A Critical Review
"The overwhelming conclusion from analysis of the available information is that more data are needed in almost every area."
http://www.academia.edu/22290764/Assessi...cal_Review

==========

Hormesis,…do you HOPE its not real? Constant and ubiquitous radiation of your body from potassium does not disturb homeostasis functions. BUT, a local radiation exposure from man made sources induces a hormetic effect in tumors, making them more robust, faster growing and more aggressive. This effect is a problem in the radiation treatment of cancer!

Hormesis is a SIGNAL function; the message goes out to near or far tissues and upregulates different functions, like DNA repair. This is similar to the bystander effect, i.e. an information pathway rather than a result of energy deposition.   A radiation dose from internal cesium-137 which is equal to the natural radiation dose from potassium causes systemic morbidity and heart abnormality, as shown by Bandazhevsky et al.  This illustrates the difference between 'natural' vs 'man made' radiation. This differentiation is CRUCIAL if one is to debate the entrenched and constantly repeated narrative of the nuclear interests and science institutions. To be clear; 70 bq/kg from potassium, our largest internal background radiation source does not cause genomic instability, heart damage, small brain size and reduced immune function, while THE SAME level of radiation from  cesium-137 does.

There are a few studies that indicate background radiation may be beneficial to life.  In contrast, x-rays may make a tumor stronger and more resistant to radiation treatment.  One could call both of these effects hormetic.

==========
Environmental conditions and nutritional factors alter the bystander effect.
An example; two things that increase the bystander effect; caffeine and nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is of interest because men desire the erectile effect and its also important for relaxing vessels in heart conditions.

Melatonin can decrease the bystander effect.  Again we see that radiation dose alone is not a defining metric of radiation danger. 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5412791/
 
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#2
Quote:The overwhelming conclusion from analysis of the available information is that more data are needed in almost every area.
I think the early bomb testing showed enough impact on fish that the nuke industry decided it would not be in their interest to fund research into ionizing radiation's effects on aquatic species.  

Quote:two things that increase the bystander effect; caffeine and nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is of interest because men desire the erectile effect and its also important for relaxing vessels in heart conditions.
Gasp, not caffeine, I drink a lot of coffee.
"The map is not the territory that it is a map of ... the word is not the thing being referred to."
 
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#3
San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee sudden and unexpected death early morning 12 Dec 2017. Stress, seafood, caffeine, viagra(?), radiation fallout over SF... in the water supply, milk, grains... pay attention to bioaccumulation/bioamplification.
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sa...t_BAYBrand

To understand if there is an inkling of a causal relationship, we'd need to see epidemiology data that includes all people, not just celebrities, having sudden and expected deaths. Across the US.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#4
understanding the causal relationship of nuclear fallout and disease;

The initial wave of radioactive iodine from Fukushima was significant. Mangano et al showed an association with Fukushima and a +/- 25% increase in birth defects in certain U.S. states.

Research over the last 20 years has overturned the dogma that low level radiation is stochastic (random all or nothing effect).  In fact fallout induces some level of morbidity or reactionary effect in all life.  This induction of metabolic change is the cause of DNA breaks, not the other way around, and which leads to cancer, heart attack, stroke and decreased immune function.  Thus there is no doubt that Fukushima is a causative factor in all disease. 

Along the coast, sea foam can enrich radionuclides up to 300 x which can blow inland
 
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#5
Not sure, but, when I come upon a follow up comment that has no new replies, I "select all" & delete (or save a small bit of the quote) or use quick edit (eliminating quote box). Then I write and post reply. The edit function works well, as well. Specifically, don't write inside the quote box. This forum is quite different from ENE, if you haven't already read posts in "New Users" http://caferadlab.com/forum-47.html, give that a go. Lots of "tools & tricks" that ENE doesn't have.

Smile I see you got the edit done
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#6
(12-12-2017, 12:29 PM)Code Wrote: Darn, my reply didnt make it.  What went wrong?
Use the preview post before the post reply to check how it looks.  

(12-12-2017, 08:55 AM)piajensen Wrote: To understand if there is an inkling of a causal relationship, we'd need to see epidemiology data that includes all people, not just celebrities, having sudden and expected deaths. Across the US.
He was only 65.  No retirement for him.  Bystander effects could save Social Security.  I've noticed a casual relationship over the last couple years between unexpected deaths and the Fuku fallout raining out on us.  2015 was especially hard on people and animals in my area.  Cancer data after 2011 isn't widely available and Cesium heart attacks aren't considered an effect of radiation.  If we don't know what's killing us we won't have anything to blame but our own failings.  

(12-12-2017, 12:29 PM)Code Wrote: Along the coast, sea foam can enrich radionuclides up to 300 x which can blow inland
I've seen a few studies showing higher concentrations of radionuclides in tidal regions, Sellafield comes to mind; noticeable effects up to ten miles inland.  

(12-12-2017, 12:29 PM)Code Wrote: In fact fallout induces some level of morbidity or reactionary effect in all life.  This induction of metabolic change is the cause of DNA breaks, not the other way around, and which leads to cancer, heart attack, stroke and decreased immune function.
Code, as I understand it you're saying that ionizing radiation breaks down intra-cellular communications which leads to these bystander effects. A man-made radioactive particle doesn't have to hit DNA to cause a break but the cells damaged by the path of a radionuclide in a body will cause DNA breakage to occur.  I was also impressed with your insight that micro-organisms are concentrating radioactive particulate and delivering a dose to parts of the body that are not normally exposed.  The official narrative continues to support the nuclear industry and hide the damaging effect of man-made radiation.  Glad you're giving us a second opinion.
"The map is not the territory that it is a map of ... the word is not the thing being referred to."
 
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#7
(12-12-2017, 03:45 PM)Horse Wrote: Use the preview post before the post reply to check how it looks.
***
  He was only 65.  No retirement for him.  Bystander effects could save Social Security.  I've noticed a casual relationship over the last couple years between unexpected deaths and the Fuku fallout raining out on us.  2015 was especially hard on people and animals in my area.  Cancer data after 2011 isn't widely available and Cesium heart attacks aren't considered an effect of radiation.  If we don't know what's killing us we won't have anything to blame but our own failings. 
Exactly, and all else said, too. Bold emphasis mine.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#8
Horse,  the bystander effect isnt caused just by internal radionuclides.   External x-rays and probably gamma will do it too.  I suppose enough cosmic rays would cause the bystander effect.  Bandazhevsky found that 50 bq/kg of Cs-137 was enough to induce metabolic change and heart disease.  Obviously the perpetual 70 bq/kg from potassium does not do that.   Alpha radiation on the skin does not cause the bystander effect.   radon in the lungs is a mystery.  On the face of it, one would expect a powerful bystander effect.  Yet areas with high natural radon dont seem to suffer.   Biology and nature is an amazing thing

"Code, as I understand it you're saying that ionizing radiation breaks down intra-cellular communications which leads to these bystander effects. A man-made radioactive particle doesn't have to hit DNA to cause a break but the cells damaged by the path of a radionuclide in a body will cause DNA breakage to occur. "

Its interesting.  Scientists used to see tiny particles around cells...really small!  They called it 'cell dust'.  Turns out they are messenger particles.  They instruct your body from oxidative to a glycolytic metabolism. This is a classic cancer marker.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506713/

Also cells produce 'meat glue' or transglutaminase.  This is associated with cancer etiology also.

What is difficult is quantifying the Fukushima disaster.  Is it responsible for the Pacific ocean crash, or are all the press releases correct that it didnt harm a single thing?  I would add a subject heading to cafe radlab; 'how bad is it?'  Probably not as bad as the bomb test era....but maybe worse.  We cant be sure of the total release and its forms.

radiation hitting the cytoplasm is 7 times more mutagenic than hitting the DNA
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/dow...1&type=pdf
 
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#9
Turns out Ed Lee's COD was heart failure. I'd be looking for cesium if I were doing an autopsy.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#10
(12-13-2017, 05:58 AM)piajensen Wrote: Turns out Ed Lee's COD was heart failure. I'd be looking for cesium if I were doing an autopsy.

Pia, they would have quite a challenge to find cesium

Bandazhevsky and Yablokov  data from Chernobyl shows ill health at 25 bq/kg of radioactive cesium and above.

A cell is made from about 40 trillion atoms

we are at a biologically significant dose of Cs137 with an average of one atom per cell.  I suppose its not easy to find one needle in a haystack of 40 trillion straws.

 A near fatal dose is about 130 atoms per cell (whole body average). 

A quickly lethal dose of becquerels (for a person) from cesium137 =10,080,000,000 bq

Thats about 140,000 cesium atoms per cell

Thus, if one atom out of each 400 million normal atoms is cesium, you die a painful death within weeks. 

Compare to K-40; we have about six million radioactive potassium atoms (k-40) per cell! 

(I determined the above numbers with the help of Wolfram Alpha.  People are encouraged to run the numbers to see if I made a mistake. Not terribly difficult. But I didnt double check)
 
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#11
That's an interesting way to go about discovery, didn't know about that resource. Though Fukuleaks has an article explaining various tests (of blood & saliva) which is enlightening.

Can You Test Blood & Saliva For Radiation Exposure?  http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=10104
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#12
(12-13-2017, 03:53 PM)piajensen Wrote: That's an interesting way to go about discovery, didn't know about that resource. Though Fukuleaks has an article explaining various tests (of blood & saliva) which is enlightening.

Can You Test Blood & Saliva For Radiation Exposure?  http://www.fukuleaks.org/web/?p=10104

The tests mentioned seem to be for high levels.  I question if even the second test would be accurately indicative of dangerous low level radiation exposure.  ' The second type of test involves examining your blood, feces, saliva, urine, and even your entire body. It is to see if cesium is being excreted from or remains inside your body at levels that are higher than normal.' 

First, there is no normal level of radioactive cesium.  If my calculations are error free, a lethal dose of cesium is 0.003 grams.

'Cesium heart' is produced from 0.000000002 grams.  Can you imagine desicating the remains of Ed Lee and looking for 0.000000002 grams of cesium?    Perhaps my numbers arent right.  I would refer to Bandazhevsky to see how they determined the cesium level.  Its extremely small in any case.   

The glaring thing is that the standard dosimetry is wrong. If an autopsy found  0.000000002 grams of cesium they would dismiss it as entirely harmless.

check the math; An official do-not-exceed level of 350 bq/kg is a whole body burden of 25,000 bq.  By the way, thats five times the burden that Bandazhevsky says gives heart morbidity.  Specific activity of Cs-137 is  3.2 x 10^12 Bq/g 

0.0000000078125  grams

the autopsy dept. better have something better than a kitchen scale!  
Im not saying they will look for Cs137 by weight.  But it underscores the minuscule quantity. 94% of the decay is beta radiation which has a travel distance in the centimeter range.  So there will be no whole body scan.  They must use mass spectrometry to differentiate radioisotopes.  Dehydration and preparation of the body fluids.  If there is uneven deposition, maybe they would have to test only the heart muscle tissue. And once again, mainstream science considers the radiation harmless at a level that actually causes heart morbidity.
 
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#13
I found a lab that tests for cesium, clotted blood not acceptable, so I'm thinking dead people's blood wouldn't be helpful.

Sample: 1 mL Blood
Method: Inductively Coupled Plasma/MassSpectrometry(ICP/MS) http://www.nmslabs.com/tests/Cesium--Blood/1042B

Thanks for the education - you've obviously studied the topic for sometime. I wish my computer wasn't acting up, I'd do more research. I'll pass on checking the math - because the trackpad isn't 100% it takes extra finger action to make things work... not using the keyboard lately has been good for my hands so I think I'll keep not using the computer so much.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#14
(12-13-2017, 06:03 PM)piajensen Wrote: I found a lab that tests for cesium, clotted blood not acceptable, so I'm thinking dead people's blood wouldn't be helpful.

Sample: 1 mL Blood
Method: Inductively Coupled Plasma/MassSpectrometry(ICP/MS) http://www.nmslabs.com/tests/Cesium--Blood/1042B

Thanks for the education - you've obviously studied the topic for sometime. I wish my computer wasn't acting up, I'd do more research. I'll pass on checking the math - because the trackpad isn't 100% it takes extra finger action to make things work... not using the keyboard lately has been good for my hands so I think I'll keep not using the computer so much.

Pia...we all have the 'health challenge'  A gentle reminder;  we all know fresh fruit and vegetables, detox strategies, fresh air and sunshine with exercise is the foundation.   btw, melatonin ameliorates some of the bystander effects and of course is an absolute biological requirement. That means getting a good nights sleep.  If one is at the point that fingers and hands are problematic from computer use, its a sure sign to turn the ship around

a wise man once said; "doctors have incredible knowledge and skills. Theres only two things they cant do; diagnose or treat"

Radiation testing is a kind of dead end, even delusion, until they update the dose coefficients.
 
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#15
Curious timing of your comments on my health. Saw my Dr. today. The doc that set my wrist incorrectly June 2016 leading to my inability to ride my bike which then resulted in my knee failing miserably. Riding bike was my saving grace. I told him I needed meds that didn't come with dangerous side effects and didn't do a thing for the 24/7 pain and sleepless nights, which is what he prescribed me before. He got it right today and prescribed OXA B12. I'm already feeling better after just two doses.

The fruit sold in Uruguay is grown with heavy doses of chemicals, which is why I'm creating a food forest. I ferment my own, home-grown veggies and was drinking water kefir for a couple months, but with the onset of super hot days and no refrigerator, the kefir had to be turned out for the garden probiotic system.

Exercise is complicated with a broken knee and related misalignment. No public swimming pool in this city. What I need are crutches, specialized knee brace, voice activated software system, computer fix and physical therapy. And, to get my wrist fixed so I can ride bike again.

Quote:If you don't know the whole story...
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#16
(12-13-2017, 09:04 PM)piajensen Wrote: What I need are crutches, specialized knee brace, voice activated software system, computer fix and physical therapy. And, to get my wrist fixed so I can ride bike again.

Not to get too personal, but you have a broken knee?   Patella? Tibia? Femur?  Sounds like you are immersed in suffering mode.  So sorry about that.
Bones have a way of remodelling....I dont like the sound of more surgery.  Natural forces of common activity remodels bones.  
For speech control of computer, I see there is a stripped down version of Dragon NaturallySpeaking for $20 for example.

I hope you find your way to health and well being

(12-13-2017, 09:27 PM)Code Wrote:
(12-13-2017, 09:04 PM)piajensen Wrote: What I need are crutches, specialized knee brace, voice activated software system, computer fix and physical therapy. And, to get my wrist fixed so I can ride bike again.
by the way, Im sure you researched OXA B12 and found it does have side effects and is genotoxic.  a synthetic corticosteroid, for topical dermatologic use. The corticosteroids constitute a class of primarily synthetic steroids used topically as anti-inflammatory agents. Systemic absorption of topical corticosteroids has caused reversible hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis suppression with the potential for glucocorticosteroid insufficiency after withdrawal of treatment. Manifestations of Cushing’s syndrome, hyperglycemia, and glucosuria can also be produced in some patients by systemic absorption of topical corticosteroids while on treatment.

Of course there are natural ways to ease the cox and cytokine inflammation pathways.  Another consideration is kratom which may be legal in Uraguay
 
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#17
The knee is pretty torn up.  Years of physical labor (hard core landscaping sans knee pads, lots of crawling around on hard ground, digging hard soil, and jumping off garbage truck sideboard onto asphalt), multiple smack downs (knee slams on ice and hard surfaces) and vertigo with more falls since 2009 add up to one big mess. I've been doing 'common activity' for years but the knee simply isn't up for it anymore. Saw one of the MRI images and, shits all wrong. This is not a casual break of just one section, my whole knee is a mess. Been living with suffering mode for decades. Started with Monsanto's RoundUp splashing on my central nervous system in '86. Doctor said, looks like carpal tunnel, tests said, not CT. It was serious nerve & immune system damage. All things considered, I'll be glad to make it to 60 and not at all interested in more than that. Pushing through the shit is all I know about life anymore.

I happen to have $20 to spare this month. Using it to translate my birth certificate - one of two final documents for my residency application.  Next month's extra $20 will go towards the final document. Then I'll prolly be paying for crutches  and transportation to physical therapy and there won't be an extra $20 for some time.

That's okay, though. I am happier not using the keyboard so much. People know my rad sources, they can fend for themselves, because, when I'm done recuperating after surgery - the food forest gets my full attention.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#18
(12-13-2017, 10:00 PM)piajensen Wrote: Been living with suffering mode for decades. Started with Monsanto's RoundUp splashing on my central nervous system in '86.
Actually, the head on collision in So Cal after family vacation to Mexico in late 60's is when I began learning to push through pain.
If it hadn't been for the car behind us that was loaded with military medical personnel, I and my family probably would not have made it. So, like I said, I'll be glad to make it to 60. That's just over 4 years away.
Pia
just pm me if needed.
 
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#19
As you say Code, research shows there is a biologic switch built into cells that when damaged enough they will initiate cell suicide .

I see this mechanism as a biological safety procedure to protect the organism. It stops damaged cells from replicating, and passing on the damage to the next generation.

There seems to be a further extension of this. Cells close by may also commit cell suicide, or go into a very defensive protective state. The cells that decide to suicide send out a message to their bystander cells, "I been so badly damaged, and to protect us all I am going to commit suicide". Once they get the message, the bystander cells do an assessment, should  I also suicide or go into super protective mode.

It is not a perfect system though. Cells near by may not have suffered enough damaged to switch on the cell suicide mechanism,  and go on to replicate. The damage is still significant, but not enough to trigger the cell suicide switch.

So in certain circumstances a short high radiation exposure that triggers mass cell suicide can be more survivable than a longer duration exposure to low level radiation that is just not enough to trigger the mass cell suicide mechanism! Over time you have a lot more damaged cells replicating and passing on their damage to a new generation.
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#20
(12-14-2017, 12:57 AM)vital1 Wrote: As you say Code, research shows there is a biologic switch built into cells that when damaged enough they will initiate cell suicide .

I see this mechanism as a biological safety procedure to protect the organism. It stops damaged cells from replicating, and passing on the damage to the next generation.
vital1, the bystander effect seems to be similar to the hormesis effect.  As you say, all are survival mechanisms.  From the literature, when the hormesis effect confers greater survival to cancer tissue, it becomes more difficult to treat. This is an unequal hormesis effect which is not seen from background radiation. Thus hormesis works AGAINST the nuclear industry.

Some other effects of the bystander effect; changing metabolism to Glycolysis versus oxidative phosphorylation for ATP energy (and more complicated shuttling back and forth...a survival mechanism for tumors), production of transglutaminase or 'meat glue' which ages, stiffens and promotes blood clotting and cancer, cause complex inflammation pathways, cause reactive oxygen species which may alter cellular communications and cause DNA breaks, alter mitochondria function (as per the above glycolysis/oxidative complexities)....and again, this is all in cells that were not even touched by radiation
 
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