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Non-Nuke Sub Mighta Blown Up
#1
The Argentinian Navy lost a non-nuclear submarine. It's been reported that a "non-nuclear" explosion (anomaly) has occurred. The Navy lost communications with the sub and nobody knows exactly where it is. Note: The original headlines on articles about this event had me thinking the sub was nuclear.

http://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2017/11/23/arm...explosion/

"The Argentine Navy searching for the submarine ARA San Juan confirmed on Thursday that they detected a "hydroacoustic anomaly", an anomalous, violent and non-nuclear event that coincides with an explosion. 

The Navy said they know the place and the event, but not the reasons. They explained that they had detected a sound near the last known position of the submarine.

LEE: The figures you should know about the disappeared Argentine submarine

"The event was short, violent and not nuclear," said Argentine Armed Forces spokesman Enrique Balbi, who said he had received the information through the Argentine ambassador to Austria.

The hydroacoustic anomaly was recorded on Wednesday, November 15 at 8:31 a.m. When asked about the timeline in which the Navy releases this information, Balbi explained that first the sound is recorded and then analyzed between international agencies until it is conclusive. "We do not have the information about what caused that anomaly in that place, on that date," Balbi said.

"There was never an explosion like that in the Argentine Navy," said Balbi and said they have ruled out that the submarine has been attacked.

The area where the anomaly was detected is 430 km from the coast and has a radius of 125 km, said Balbi, where there are depths of between 200 to 3,000 meters.

The Mar del Plata family members of the crew reacted indignantly to the news, claiming that they hid the information.

In the naval base there were heartbreaking scenes: before the news the relatives broke down to mourn and some threw themselves to the floor.

Itatí Leguizamón, wife of German Suárez, one of the tripulados of the ARA San Juan, described that the relatives became violent when members of the Navy informed them about the explosion.

"They lied to us," said Leguizamón, and asked that the government's actions be investigated.
According to the crew's wife, the submarine had a flaw in 2014, said the submarine ARA San Juan had difficulties to emerge. The Argentine Navy up to this moment has not made reference to this information.

"When it comes to an explosion in immersion, in something confined as it is a submarine, it speaks academically of an implosion. It is not an explosion that then leaves something floating on the surface. Implota, there is nothing that comes out of the submarine, "said Balbi.
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-10-am-...530&crop=1]9 of 9 | While the multinational search continues to find an Argentine submarine that disappeared more than a week ago, authorities fear that the crew members are running out of time. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-04-am....530&crop=1]1 of 9 | "We wait for you with love at 44", says a handwritten sign hanging on a fence at the Mar del Plata naval base, Argentina, where the relatives of the 44 crew of the submarine ARA San Juan, disappeared on November 15, They wait for news of the ship. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: 171119074643-03-comandante-espora-argent...530&crop=1]2 of 9 | The Argentine submarine ARA "San Juan" disappeared on November 15 has Argentina and the world in suspense while 20 military vessels, 7 scientific vessels, 5 aircraft and a satellite from Argentina and 12 other countries search without rest.
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-15-am....530&crop=1]3 of 9 | Russia was the most recent country to join the international search of the submarine in the turbulent waters of the South Atlantic. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-14-am....530&crop=1]4 out of 9 | While the multinational search continues to find an Argentine submarine that disappeared more than a week ago, authorities fear that the crew members are running out of time. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-05-am....530&crop=1]5 out of 9 | According to officials of the Argentine Navy, the search has entered a critical phase, although they have asked the relatives not to lose hope. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-13-am....530&crop=1]6 out of 9 | Messages of support and strength to the crew have been accumulated at the Mar del Plata naval base. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-09-am....530&crop=1]7 out of 9 | "We pray for you," reads this poster. The reports of contact with the submarine have only served to feed false hopes. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-11-am....530&crop=1]8 out of 9 | A woman approaches to read the messages for the crew of 44, including the first submarine woman in the country. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-10-am-...530&crop=1]9 of 9 | While the multinational search continues to find an Argentine submarine that disappeared more than a week ago, authorities fear that the crew members are running out of time. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)
[Image: whatsapp-image-2017-11-23-at-7-45-04-am....530&crop=1]1 of 9 | "We wait for you with love at 44", says a handwritten sign hanging on a fence at the Mar del Plata naval base, Argentina, where the relatives of the 44 crew of the submarine ARA San Juan, disappeared on November 15, They wait for news of the ship. (Credit: Fernando Ramírez)

Previous
Balbi said the search continued.

The Argentine submarine ARA "San Juan" disappeared on November 15 has in suspense Argentina and the world while 20 military vessels, 7 scientific vessels, 5 aircraft and a satellite from Argentina and other 12 countries are looking for restlessly in the turbulent waters of the Atlantic south.
Pia
Jitsi chat: enfo.pia@gmail.com
 
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#2
Read that this was a German-built diesel-electric submarine in English sources.  Reported electrical problems.  Does Argentina have nuclear subs?
"The map is not the territory that it is a map of ... the word is not the thing being referred to."
 
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#3
There's some questions about nuclear subs in Argentina:

Argentine Navy receives refurbished TR1700 class submarine ARA San Juan 2014 en.mercopress.com/2014/06/19/argentine-navy-receives-refurbished-tr1700-class-submarine-ara-san-juan
"With the latest reincorporation the Argentine submarine operational force based in Mar del Plata naval compound has three units, two TR1700, ARA San Juan and ARA Santa Cruz and one U209 ARA Salta. There is still a fourth TR1700 unit ARA Santa Fe, half assembled in Argentina but since the eighties frozen because of lack of funds.

The Argentine Navy has plans to convert the ARA Santa Fe into a test nuclear powered submersible by equipping it with an Argentine designed CAREM reactor, but this seems far into the future."

A Nuclear Powered Argentine Submarine?
https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/icsa/2015/07/21/...submarine/
"Argentine Defense Minsters have repeatedly claimed that Argentina has a viable nuclear submarine program underway. The program has been stated to use the CAREM reactor, but it appears nobody told the CNEA, the Argentine Nuclear Agency responsible for the reactor. The civilian nuclear energy agency states that the CAREM reactor is a modular power plant that will be used for power generation in remote regions, power for high-energy use industry and desalination. CAREM-25 is Argentina’s first indigenous designed and built power plant. The reactor building is currently under construction near the town of Lima in Buenos Aires Province.
What is the origin of the difference of the stated purpose of the CAREM reactor between the civilian and military establishment? The projected optimism of the political establishment may be due to competition with the Brazilian submarine program. Can an Argentine politician publically admit to being left in the dust by the Brazilians?

The CAREM-25 reactor is a small 27MWe modular reactor and appears to be inherently unsuitable for use in submarines. Firstly, it’s just too big. The submarine that is widely touted for use, the TR1700 would be retrofitted with a nuclear reactor but even with a new submarine design, the current generation of CAREM is simply too large.
It also needs to be refueled too often. When US submarines are aiming to never be refueled in the lifetime of the vessel CAREM-25 requires yearly refueling. Refueling a submarine is far more troublesome than reactors on land. The core is not accessible without the reactor section being removed from the submarine entirely leaving the submarine in port for around 18 months. This would leave an Argentine submarine with a woeful 40% duty cycle.
Finally, the SCRAM mechanisms, or emergency safety mechanisms, are stated to rely on gravity. This is also not seen as viable for a submarine reactor that can pitch and roll in the ocean."

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_su...ce_Command "History
In 1917 the Navy sent students to the United States to begin training courses at the Naval Submarine Base New London. Lieutenants Francis Lajous, Osvaldo Repeto, Eduardo Ceballos and Vicente Ferrer served in the US Navy during the First World War.
First generation
[Image: 200px-Clase_Santa_Fe.jpg]

Argentine first submarines Santa Fe class and submarine tender General Belgrano in Mar del Plata naval base
In 1927 the Argentine Navy signed a contract with the Italian shipyard Franco Tosi of Taranto in order to build the service's first three ships. The units arrived in Buenos Aires on April 7, 1933 and transferred to Mar del Plata on September 3, which became the Anniversary Day for the newly created Submarine Force. The Tarantinos, as they were known, served between 1933 and 1960 when the last one, Santa Fe (S-1), was retired after taking over a thousand dives. In 1938, the crew of Santa Fe had been awarded a civilian medal after assisting a local fishing boat that was in distress off Cabo Corrientes.[2] Santiago del Estero (S-2) established (at the time) an immersion record for a submarine in the South Atlantic (114 metres).[3] Santiago del Estero took part in the blockade of the Rio de la Plata during the 1955 Revolución Libertadora, where she fought off a strike package of Gloster Meteor fighters loyal to president Juan Domingo Peron.[4] Second generation
[Image: 200px-ARA-Stgo.jpg]

ARA Santiago del Estero (S-12) after being upgraded in Mar del Plata
In April 1960 the US Navy agreed to transfer two Balao-class submarine units on loan under the Military Assistance Program. They departed from San Francisco, California on September 23 of the same year and arrived in Mar del Plata on November 30. These ships participated in numerous exercises during their career including UNITAS, CAIMAN, SAYONARA and CAIO DULIO. The conning towers of both submarines were locally upgraded to improve hydrodynamics.[5] Some years ago, Argentinian officials disclosed that a group of tactical divers had carried out an incursion on the Falkland Islands on board the Santiago del Estero (S-12) in October 1966.[6] The submarines went back to the United States for mid-life repairs and were finally retired in 1971. Third generation
[Image: 200px-ARASantiagodelEsteroS22.jpg]

ARA Santiago del Estero (S-22)
In 1971 the US Navy transferred further units in order to replace the previous generation. Two GUPPY-type submarines were an interim measure until new submarines being built in Europe became available. Santiago del Estero was retired by September 1981 but Santa Fe (S-21) would take part in the 1982 Falklands War. She landed a team of Buzos Tácticos (tactical divers) on the initial amphibious assault and weeks later, after a successful resupply mission, was spotted on the surface. She was attacked with Sea Skua missiles by a British Wasp helicopter and disabled off Grytviken, South Georgia; scuttled at dock by her crew, the submarine was eventually sunk in deep waters by the British some years after the war ended. Fourth generation
[Image: 200px-S31ARASalta.jpg]

ARA Salta (S-31)
In 1969 a contract was signed in West Germany for two Type 209 submarines. The ships were of the 56 metres/1100 ton sub-type; they were built in parts by Howaldtswerke at Kiel and delivered to Tandanor shipyard in Buenos Aires where final assembly was completed in 1973. The vessels were commissioned in 1974, but only San Luis (S-32) was in service during the 1982 Falklands War. She reported two encounters with Royal Navy ships but without scoring hits due to problems with her torpedo's firing system. The threat posed by the San Luis, however, forced the Royal Navy to give up recovery efforts of two Sea King helicopters which had ditched at sea on 12 May and 18 May 1982 respectively. Both aircraft were eventually destroyed by naval gunfire.[7][8] She also tied up a considerable number of British naval assets deployed to counter her presence.[9] There was an attempt to deploy the Salta to the Falklands area at the end of May, but excessive noise and problems with the torpedo firing system similar to those found on San Luis prevented her operational use.[10] San Luis was struck from the Navy in 1997 after an incomplete overhaul, whilst Salta (S-31) was still in service as of 2017. Fifth generation
[Image: 200px-S42ARASanJuan.jpg]

ARA San Juan (S-42)
As part of a major fleet renovation plan which included the MEKO frigates classes, a contract was signed in 1977 with West Germany's Nordseewerke for six TR-1700-class submarines, the last four of them to be built in Argentina. The Argentine Navy sponsored the development of the CAREM nuclear reactor to be installed on these submarines,[11] but for political reasons the whole program was cancelled and only the two German units were delivered. These ships are the largest submarines built in Germany since World War II and are among the fastest diesel-electric submarines in the world.[12] Argentina developing nuclear-powered submarine 2011 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...arine.html

""President Cristina Kirchner has requested us to come up with a nuclear propulsion development project for our submarines," he said in a statement released by his ministry.

"This brings us to the submarine ARA Santa Fe, which has been waiting for some years in the shipyard, which when ready will exit not with its original propulsion but with nuclear propulsion developed in Argentina." The submarine had been due for completion in 2015 as a conventional model but it is almost certain to be substantially longer before it can operate with nuclear propulsion.

In June Admiral Sir John "Sandy" Woodward, the head of Britain's Naval task force in the 1982 war, warned in a letter to *The Daily Telegraph *that defence cuts mean Britain can now do "precisely nothing" to prevent Argentina retaking the islands.

Days later President Kirchner labelled Britain a "crude colonial power in decline" after David Cameron insisted in Parliament that the Falklands should remain British for as long as they want.

Last month Brazil announced it had started work on five new submarines, one of which will be nuclear-powered, in a project seen as necessary due to its discovery of vast offshore oilfields.

British companies continue to explore the waters of the Falklands for oil and any large scale discovery would be certain to create further tension with Argentina."
Pia
Jitsi chat: enfo.pia@gmail.com
 
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#4
Submarino a Propulsión Nuclear 2012 https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/...ra-spn.htm

"There is no prohibition of a legal nature that prevents the Republic of Argentina, should it so decide, FROM producing nuclear-powered submarines. No international instrument currently in force banS the development of this class of ships to the States that possess nuclear weapons, nor less obviously to those who do not. The Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT) is aimed to ensure peaceful uses of atomic energy. This does not exclude the use of nuclear energy for military purposes in general, provided that they do not involve nuclear explosives or nuclear devices.

Jacques E. C. Hymansa argues that what appeared to the United States to be an Argentine nuclear weapons program was in fact an Argentine nuclear submarine program. From its founding in the early 1950s, the Argentine Comision Nacional de Energía Atomica (CNEA) promoted an ideology of technological autonomy. As early as 1970 the CNEA and the navy had engaged in a joint feasibility study of nuclear propulsion along with the Italian atomic energy authority and German and Italian firms. This study concluded that enriched uranium would be necessary for naval propulsion. It also concluded that foreign provision of such fuel would would be beyond Argentina's capacities. Not surprisingly, the navy was hardly encouraged by these early studies.

The issue was revived, however, in 1972-73 for at least two reasons. First, in the 1972-73 negotiations over the Embalse nuclear power plant, the Germans tried to sweeten their offer of an enriched-uranium reactor not only with uranium enrichment technology as previously mentioned, but with "close collaboration also in the area of marine propulsion and compact nuclear stations for the generation of energy [for example, reactors for the purpose of propulsion]." In 1973 the CNEA and the navy prepared a secret accord in which the navy would provide funds for CNEA research in "compact power reactors, apt for naval propulsion, designed to utilize freely available national fuel."

The military purpose of the uranium enrichment plant at Pilcaniyeu, in all likelihood, was to provide Argentina with the capacity to build not a bomb but a nuclear-powered submarine. From a technical perspective, two points suggest this conclusion. First, while 20 percent enrichment is insufficient fo: a nuclear weapon, it is more than sufficient for a submarine reactor. Second, if one subtracts for various research purposes 100 of the 500 kilograms of 20 percent enriched uranium that the plant was projected to produce annually, this leaves enough fuel for two nuclear submarines. Moreover, the archival research showed that nuclear submarines and nuclear propulsion, in contrast to nuclear weapons, had aroused substantial interest in the Argentine military-primarily in the navy, the service with the closest institutional links to the CNEA.

In 1976, with the imposition of military rule in the country, work resumed with a vengeance. In 1977 the government contracted with the German company Thyssen Rheinstahl for the acquisition of a class of diesel attack submarine, the TR1700, which had characteristics similar to those of a nuclear submarine. The Thyssen submarine model had the potential to be modified to use nuclear propulsion. The deal was to construct the first two in West Germany and the next four in Argentina.

With a surfaced displacement or 2,116 tons and a submerged displacement of 2,264 tons, it was thought by some to have the potential to be modified to use nuclear propulsion, but this project never moved forward. The French SNA (Sous-marins nucléaires d'attaque - Nuclear Attack Submarine) Rubis class nuclear submarine was launched in 1988. The Rubis was an elegant design that overcame many of the faults with other nuclear submarines. With a displacement of 2,400 tons they are the most compact nuclear attack submarines to date. The CNEA eventually failed to miniaturize the reactor sufficiently to fit it safely in the Thyssen submarine as designed, so the navy never actually decided in favor of building a nuclear submarine. The ambition was definitely present, however, and it was maintained through the 1980s.

On 18 July 1991 the Presidents of Argentina and Brazil signed in Guadalajara, Mexico, an Agreement on the exclusively peaceful use of nuclear energy (ratified by the) Argentina Republic Act 24.046 of 05 December 1991), in which article III states that "nothing in this Agreement shall limit the right of the parties to use nuclear energy for the propulsion or operation of any vehicle, including submarines, as they both are peaceful applications of nuclear energy".

In 1992 the then group of studies on nuclear issues of the Council Argentino para las Relaciones Internacionales, CARI (today) (Nuclear Affairs Committee) carried out a study on the possibilities of aArgentine nuclear submarine. The objective was to reflect on the followingkey questions: do on what benefits the interests of Argentina is based on? can count on this technology?, does the Argentina have the technical ability to do this?, Are there any legal impediments of some kind?, what reactions we can wait for? part of the international community?

This study noted that "If Argentina resolved to develop a nuclear-powered submarine, is easy to predict that the international reaction will be negative. The invoked reasons can be varied ... but ultimately the reason is basically one: the developing countries can be instruments of war, a highly sophisticated weapon that they grant them a capacity for action that exceeds the merely local scope. ... The advantages of the submarine are too well known to need to berepeated. Navy not possessing these submarines will have a very limited role. In a conflict with a fleet that has them, its effectiveness will be negligible, as theIt clearly showed the argentino-británica war of 1982. Is at least conceivable that the result of that conflict might have been different have been the Argentina withnuclear submarines. ... to the centres of power, ... the peripheral countries are by definition, not reliable, little serious, unpredictable and, in special cases even irrational."

In February 2008 it was reported in the Buenos Aires press that Brazil would start working jointly with Argentina in the construction of a nuclear submarine, the first in Latin America, to be built using French technology. For that purpose, a binational company would be formed, to develop a small-size reactor already created by Argentina's INVAP technology institute and to be installed in conventional French designed Scorpene class submarines.

Presidents Fernandez de Kirchner and Lula announced 22 February 2008 that Argentina and Brazil will create binational commissions to investigate how the two countries can best cooperate in the enrichment of uranium and in the development of nuclear power plants. The announcement appeared to take members of the Argentine nuclear establishment by surprise. The Argentine press also reported that Argentina and Brazil decided to jointly develop a nuclear-powered submarine, but those reports were met by denials from the Brazilian Defense Ministry and the Argentine MFA.

A number of media outlets, most significantly top-circulation daily Clarin, also ran stories on a supposed Argentina-Brazil agreement to co-develop a nuclear submarine. According to those stories, Brazil is to produce the submarine, based on a French design, and the nuclear fuel, while Argentina is to design the propulsion reactor, based on the CAREM design.
Those reports prompted denials by both the Argentine and Brazilian sides. Reports published February 26 quote Brazilian Defense Ministry Spokesman Jose Ramos as saying: "A joint Brazil-Argentina project for the building of a nuclear submarine is something that is not being discussed." Similarly, the MFA's Sayus told Emboff that the joint declaration contained nothing about nuclear submarine cooperation. An officer in the Argentine Navy's Office of Strategies, Plans, and Policy, reported that the first and only time he had heard of the submarine plans was in the newspaper. Similarly, CNEA's Boado said that he had been "completely surprised" by the news reports regarding the submarine, adding that "the Commission has no information on any of this."

This project seemed unlikely to some. It was difficult to understand what would motivate Argentina to participate in such an expensive and potentially destabilizing project. What stood out with regard to the nuclear-related aspects of the Fernandez de Kirchner-Lula joint declaration is how little in-depth planning seems to have gone into the announcements. Officials in the CNEA, MFA, Navy, and at INVAP were all taken by surprise. That suggests that these nuclear initiatives were hastily initiated and agreed at the political level, under pressure from the two presidents to produce deliverables, rather than evolving organically in response to a real need.

During a visit to Argentina, Brazilian Defense Minister, Nelson Jobim, said that "we have talked with Defense Minister, Nilda Garré, and three Argentine commanders with whom we agreed to create a binational company to develop the compact nuclear small-sized reactor" to be used in a locally made submarine, said the minister in an interview with Argentina's daily newspaper Clarín. Argentina sought to participate on the Brazilian Project but it was not possible. There were conversations, mainly at the time of the February 2008's presidential agreement, with no positive result. The Brazilian government soon made clear that the project would go ahead exclusively under the Brazilian Navy's supervision.

Argentine government officials claimed the press had incorrectly reported some nuclear-related elements of the cooperation agreements signed by Presidents Fernandez de Kirchner and Lula 22 February 2008, noting that a reported deal to cooperate on the construction of a nuclear submarine had been subsequently denied by both countries. The officials claime the submarine partnership was an invention, and caution observers not to place too much trust in the Argentine press. Argentina is concentrating on developing enrichment capability to produce low-enriched fuel for its two existing nuclear power plants and for another under construction.

In June 2010, during a meeting with the press, the Argentine Minister of Defense, Nilda Garré unexpectedly announced an initiative for developing nuclear propulsion for its Navy's vessels. Sources from the Argentine Government made clear that the Project was about propulsion and not about weapons of mass destruction. The project would be based on a nuclear reactor developed by INVAP (the Argentine flagship high technology company) and such reactor could be operative by 2013. To install the reactor on a vessel could demand two more years. The core of the development would be the CAREM, an advanced SMR [small-medium reactor]. INVAP's proposal would be to test and build the prototype for external sales, as a power reactor. Even so,the CAREM would seem to have the adequate compatibility to become a naval reactor, able to power the engines of a TR1700 submarine. Parts for that submarine are already available for assembly at the Tandanor-Domec García [now Argentine Naval Industrial Complex – CINAR] shipyard.

Argentine Minister of Defense Nilda Garré later clarified initial news reports about a nuclear submarine by stating that "it is too early to say whether it [nuclear propulsion] will be for icebreakers or submarines."
Pia
Jitsi chat: enfo.pia@gmail.com
 
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